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1. Pastor Bob on September 11th, 2008 12:40 pm

   I don’t see where the Bible supports this vision of eternity. Rev. 21:1 describes a new Heaven and a new Earth and the concluding chapters do not mention anything carried over from this culture. The fact that we need a new nature to live and thrive there seems to negate the desire for any leftovers from this world. And if eternal life is knowing God and Jesus (Jn. 17:3) then God and Jesus are gonna be more than enough to satisfy this old boy in eternity. Perhaps if we were more satisfied with Jesus here (Ps. 73:25) then we’d be looking forward to an eternity filled with Him and less concerned about Him including things we’ve created.

2. Joe on September 12th, 2008 8:56 am

   Pastor Bob,
   Good to hear from you!

   I can’t say much now, but I think I am well equipped to answer you a bit, b/c I have said much of the same thing you said in your last comment. A few books that were instrumental in changing my mind on this subject were Randy Alcorn’s Heaven, Creation Regained by Albert Wolters, The Transforming Vision by Walsh and Middleton, and Heaven is Not My Home by Paul Marshall. Another book I am looking forward to reading is the one Larry is currently reading, Culture Making by Andy Crouch.

   Though it might not seem that the Scriptures would support such a statement, when you take into consideration the mandate in Genesis one to subdue and cultivate God’s good creation to His glory, the various prophecies of the Old Testament, and the fact that God will not wipe out this present earth as much as He will renew it (which 2 Peter and Revelation 21) seem to be pointing to, it becomes plain that though we are right to say that the Lord is ‘enough’ for us, we must be careful not to over-spiritualize things in such a way that we negate the goodness of not only God’s creation, but our calling to bring out all the potential within that creation for human flourishing….to God’s glory. That is, in such a way that the various attributes of God are revealed through His image bearers (us).

   Of course, we don’t want to hold onto the things we have created in such a way that we idolize them, but if we view them rightly, I believe we will realize that God delights in the goodness of them. For He knows what is truly good in them. He can discern perfectly how we corrupt that which is good and in turn, glorify Himself when He comes again to make all things as they ought to be and better.

   Could say more, but cannot do so now! Thanks again…
   Joe

3. Pastor Bob on September 12th, 2008 5:26 pm

   Joe,

   2 Peter 3:10, “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up”

   Greek: burned up, κατακαίω: consume wholly, burn up utterly.

   I’ll have to look into some of the books you mention to see how they deal with language and scripture like this that seems pretty cut and dried to me right now. I’m lookin’ ta Jesus and believin’ for a whole lot betta in eternity.

   Dominus Iesus Christus Vobiscum!
   PBob

4. Gino Curcuruto on September 12th, 2008 6:27 pm

   Larry,

   I enjoyed the quote and was looking to use it on my blog (but you beat me to it). Personally, I agree with what was written.

   Pastor Bob,

   Many scholars appear to interpret “burned up” in 2 Peter 3:10 as more of a refining fire of judgment rather than total annihilation. Meaning that the sinful works of this world will be destroyed and what will remain are the cultural works that do honor God. As Joe rightly mentioned above, the cultural mandate in Genesis calls us, as image bearers of God, to create culture. God doesn’t need us to do this, he let’s us. It’s not that we will be bring things to the New Earth that honor us, they will be there because they point to the King! That is an incredibly amazing concept to me. Can you imagine that?

   Before you decide this view is not supported in the Bible, let’s talk about Isaiah 60. Are there really going to be some cultural artifacts in the New City? Maybe we can discuss that some more, though I would highly recommend Richard Mouw’s “When the Kings Come Marching In” as it really helped me.

   Grace and peace,
   Gino

5. Joe on September 12th, 2008 7:01 pm

   Pastor Bob,
   I’m not sure if you saw this in the comments section of the Between Two Worlds blog, but here is a recommended article by Doug Moo on why 2 Peter 3:10 doesn’t point to a complete redo of everything. I have read about this verse, but am not sure I have read this article. I plan on checking it out myself.

   http://www.wheaton.edu/CACE/resources/onlinearticles/MooNature.pdf

   Would say more, but it is way past my bed time here in Europe!
   Thanks,
   Joe

6. Larry on September 13th, 2008 3:22 pm

   Hi Bob,

   I’m sure this is found in the article Joe mentioned by Doug Moo, but the Nestle Aland Greek manuscript reads,

   καὶ γῆ καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ ἔργα εὑρεθήσεται

   ‘and the earth and the works that are in it will be found’

   That is a big difference than ‘burned’. Most of the modern translations reflect this in their translation of 2 Peter 3:10.

   I hope to write a bit more early next week, and I appreciate your checking our blog out.

   Take care,

   Larry

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